Union of American Hebrew Congregations
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
In your book, From Intimidation to Victory,
you write in relation to your
family, "They know I am still Jewish," and yet, you view Jesus as your
Messiah. Do you see any conflict in those two statements?
No, not at all. I had a strong Jewish identity before I accepted Jesus as
my Messiah and I have a strong Jewish identity now. [Brooklyn-born Sekulow
was raised as a Reform Jew on Long Island, NY and in Atlanta, GA. Today,
his two brothers also believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and his sister is
married to a Lubavitcher Chasid.]
What do you say to Reform Jews, or Jews in general, who say you can't
believe in Jesus and still be Jewish?
I have always found it most difficult to understand why Reform Judaism
would have an anti-Jesus concept. Reform Judaism was supposed to be this
more intellectual version, more free and open, embracing some very
divergent views away from traditional or Orthodox Judaism. I think of the
issue of same-sex marriages...yet, the Jesus issue is taboo. It's been
incredible to me that, as open and as free-thinking as Reform Judaism
is...acceptance of the belief that Jesus is the Messiah would alienate the
Reform Jewish community, [which says] "ah, they're no longer Jewish." But
you can be an agnostic Jew and you're still Jewish, or you could be two men
living together who say they are married, and there are Reform rabbis who
will perform the ceremony--and that's okay, but Jesus creates the crisis. I
really find that interesting. [Editor's note: See "Why We Reject Messianic
Jews" on page 24.]
If there was one message that you could impart to the Reform Jewish
community about Jay Sekulow and the work of the American Center for Law and
Justice, what would it be?
Look at what we are really saying...you will find out that our work helps
everyone. It helps Reform Jews, it helps Orthodox Jews, it helps the
International Society of Krishna Consciousness. Religious freedom is that
broad, and the concepts we have supported have been that broad. I think it
is also important for people, before they make a judgment about who we are
and what we stand for, to look at the cases we've had, especially in the
religious liberty arena. The decisions in the Supreme Court have been
either unanimous--all nine justices--or 8-1. So, I say, get behind the
rhetoric and see who we really are.
Of all the six cases that you have argued before the Supreme Court, which
do you believe will have the greatest long-term impact in the cause of
religious liberty?
I thought the biggest one was the Mergens case--the Bible club
case--because it just changed the way religion was viewed in the public
schools. But when I talk to my associates, they think Lamb's Chapel was
more significant because...it clearly said that you cannot discriminate
against a religious viewpoint, period. It is unacceptable in this country
to say that everyone can have access to a [public] facility and discuss all
kinds of issues, but if there's a religious perspective on that, it's
[illegal].
I read that of the eighteen lawyers on the staff of the American Center for
Law and Justice, five are Messianic Jews.
There's me, Trubnick, Stewart Ross, and the guy who used to head our
development office [Norman Berman]. There is also Paul Chaim Schenck,
although he's not a lawyer.
Michael Hirsh was working with you for a while. Was he a Messianic Jew?
I don't think he's ever described himself as such. He doesn't hide his
Jewish identity, nor could he...he's about 6'7"--he's the tallest Jew I've
ever met in my life.
Michael Hirsh is seeking a new trial for convicted murderer Paul Hill. If
he is successful, do you think that his use of the "necessity defense" [the
argument that the taking of an abortion doctor's life is justifiable
because it results in the saving of hundreds of unborn fetuses] will work
this time?
No. I personally like Michael Hirsh a lot. You know we had to terminate
Michael because he was going to represent Paul Hill and we weren't. We have
a very different view on how these cases should be handled. We think
violence does nothing but take the pro-life movement steps back, and we
just weren't going to support it. Michael just wanted to do this necessity
defense, and we said that can't happen under our watch, and he left.
What do you feel has been the greatest accomplishment of the ACLJ to date?
I think we've redefined religious liberty in this country. We've taken the
religious freedom issue and made it a speech issue. I get criticized for
that from a lot of my friends on the other side, but it has been extremely
successful in the courtroom.
What are your thoughts on people who call themselves Messianic Jews?
I'm opposed to them. I'm for truth in advertising. They are Christians.
Recently the Southern Baptist convention decided to appoint a missionary to
American Jews. What are your thoughts about this?
Any time a Jew converts to Christianity, I regard it not as an indictment
of Christian missionary activity but as a massive indictment of Judaism and
Jewish leadership. The correct response to the Baptists is not the shaking
of defiant fists on the part of a measly two percent of the population,
which just looks silly; what we really ought to do is just beef up our
Jewish education. Jerry Falwell, himself, once told me he'd never known an
educated Jew to convert to Christianity.
What is Toward Tradition?
The target audience of Toward Tradition is...Jewish conservatives. I
believe that at this particular point in American Jewish history, Judaism
speaks for a conservative agenda, not a liberal one.
In late July 1996, congressional Republicans launched a new push to amend
the U.S. Constitution to allow for public school prayer. Do you view this
proposed amendment as a violation of the separation between church and
state?
No, because nowhere in the Constitution does it speak of separation of
church and state. To me, religious freedom means the right to pray, the
right to circumcise my son at eight days old, and the right to have my meat
slaughtered in accordance with the Old Testament dietary rules.... The only
hint of a sound that we have heard against ritual slaughter in America has
come from PETA--People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, a very
left-wing organization. When it comes to circumcision, do you really think
part of the agenda of Pat Robertson or Pat Buchanan is to stop me from
circumcising my son? Of course not. I'll tell you who is trying to make
circumcision illegal--an organization called Noncirc, made up of liberal
Jews. The Christian Right is not trying to prevent me from praying; the
objection to prayer is coming from the left. When you get right down to the
issues of Jews having religious rights, it is obvious that there is a
common agenda with religious Christians.
Do you think that the Christian Right would make all Jews feel very welcome
and comfortable in the United States?
I believe that implicitly, absolutely. It certainly has been my experience
and it has been the experience of all the Jews who are involved in Toward
Tradition.
Some of the Christian Coalition literature speaks of America as a
"Christian Nation." Do you see that as an accurate depiction of this
country?
I've never seen it in any Christian Coalition literature. I know that some
Christian conservatives have taken the position that America is a Christian
nation, and that doesn't offend me because I don't believe that the
language is meant to be exclusionary. A more accurate description is that
America is founded on Judeo-Christian values.... [By Judeo-Christian
values] I mean freedom of religion, freedom of speech.
Do you believe that our Constitution provides for separation between church
and state?
I believe that our Constitution provides that there should not be a state
church.... I do not believe that [church/state separation] is the basis for
denying that school vouchers can be used in religious schools....I think
that school vouchers are a good thing for the Jewish community because the
biggest crisis we face is Jewish continuity and the number one thing...that
ensures Jewish continuity is day school education. And the biggest problem
with day school education today in America is that it is not affordable for
everyone. Vouchers would make it more affordable, and that would encourage
Jewish continuity.
I understand that you grew up as a Reform Jew.
Yes, my brother and I grew up as Reform Jews.
Did you have a bar mitzvah ceremony?
Around the time I was twelve, I had a religious crisis. We [my brother Rob
and I] were actively involved in the antiwar protest movement. This was
1970 during the Vietnam War. I was constantly challenging authority,
engaged in a full-blown adolescent rebellion. I guess it was part of the
spirit of the age. Because I questioned the existence of God, I decided not
to have a bar mitzvah ceremony.
When did you convert to Christianity?
When I was about fourteen, I saw a wonderful film called King of Kings. It
was about the life of Jesus and I became very interested in Christianity.
Did that film cause you to convert?
Not exactly. It was more of a process. There were two major influences in
high school as well. One was a classmate who was the son of a liberal
Methodist minister. The other was a female classmate in my freshman year
who wound up becoming the first ordained female Lutheran minister. We spent
a great deal of time discussing and arguing about Jesus and Christianity.
Not long after, I converted.
What was your family's reaction to your conversion?
My family's reaction was dismay. My mother said it was "disgusting" and an
insult to Judaism. Initially, my brother thought I was crazy. Within a
year, he converted too.
Why do you go by the name Chaim?
I use the name Chaim, my middle Hebrew name, for two reasons. The first is
that I love the name and the second is that my first name, Pinchas, is too
difficult for most people to pronounce.
When people ask you about your religion now, what do you tell them?
I refer to myself as a Jewish Christian.
Why do you include the word Jewish?
Because I will never repudiate my Jewish upbringing. In fact, I wish that I
had a stronger Jewish education. I wish that I had a richer, full Jewish
experience when I was growing up.
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